The navigator's position was relocated behind the pilot. Indigenous Fort Worth C-87 and AT-22 production began with the FY 1943 order for 80 serial-numbered airframes 43-30548 through 4330627. Lindell Hendrix, later a test pilot for Republic Aviation, flew B-24s for the Eighth Air force. The C-87 flew in many theaters of war, including much hazardous duty in flights from Labrador to Greenland and Iceland in the North Atlantic. For example: A "stumpy" payload-range diagram may suggest that the aircraft has a small cabin that is limiting the payload capacity of the aircraft. This gave the B-24 a 35-percent higher wing loading. [28] The B-24 was vital for missions of a radius less than 1,000mi (1,600km), in both the Atlantic and Pacific theaters where U.S. Navy PB4Y-1s and USAAF SB-24s took a heavy toll of enemy submarines and surface combatants and shipping. In October 1944, two RAF Liberator squadrons (357 and 358) were deployed to Jessore India in support of British SAS, American OSS and French SIS underground operations throughout SE Asia. The C-87 was not always popular with the aircrews assigned to fly it. The top horizontal line represents the maximum payload. Books repeated highlight the fact that the Mosquito bomb load over long distance was equal to a B17 (approx 4,000lbs). The XB-24 was then re-designated XB-24Bthese changes became standard on all B-24s built starting with the B-24C model. Before the Leigh Light, not a single enemy submarine had been sunk in over five months, but in combination with radar, it was so overwhelmingly effective that many German submarine crews chose to surface during the day so that they could at least see the aircraft attacking them and have a chance to fire their anti-aircraft weaponry in defense.[26][27]. A highly modern aircraft for its day, it first saw combat operations with the Royal Air Force. This was the B-24's most costly mission. The C-109 was a dedicated fuel transport version of the B-24 conceived as a support aircraft for Boeing B-29 Superfortress operations in central China. The Liberators flew a shorter 3,077mi (4,952km) over-water route from Learmonth to an airfield northeast of Colombo, but they could make the flight in 17 hours with a 5,500 pounds (2,500kg) payload, whereas the Catalinas required 27 hours and had to carry so much auxiliary fuel that their payload was limited to only 1,000 pounds (450kg). Fifteen of the 15th AF's 21 bombardment groups flew B-24s. Lastly, unlike a typical purpose-designed transport, the B-24 was not designed to tolerate large loading variations because most of its load was held on fixed bomb racks. A payload range diagram (also known as the elbow chart) illustrates the trade-off between payload and range. One of these was captured at Venegono, Italy on 29 March 1944. And that was even if the US had bases nearby! The B-24D was the Liberator III in British service. The Consolidated Aircraft Company PB4Y-2 Privateer was a U.S. Navy patrol bomber that was derived directly from the B-24 Liberator. All Rights Reserved. . The Liberators range proved invaluable in scouting and destroying German U-boats, creating safe passage for Allied transports and destroyers across Europe. Wind tunnel testing and experimental programs using an existing Consolidated Model 31 provided extensive data on the flight characteristics of the Davis airfoil. . The B-24D initially featured upper, belly and tail turrets, plus swiveling single guns in the waist and on either side of the nose. The 36th Bombardment Squadron was the Eighth Air Force's only electronic warfare squadron using specially equipped B-24s to jam German VHF communications during large Eighth Air Force daylight raids. Our editors will review what youve submitted and determine whether to revise the article. 200 Flight played an important role in supporting covert operations conducted by the Allied Intelligence Bureau; and other Liberators were converted to VIP transports. [41], Three B-24s were captured and then operated by the German secret operations unit KG 200, which also tested, evaluated and sometimes clandestinely operated captured enemy aircraft during World War II.[42]. The Liberators were later replaced by Avro Lancastrians. In comparison with its contemporaries, the B-24 was relatively difficult to fly and had poor low-speed performance; it also had a lower ceiling and was less robust than the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress. In a joint venture between the Army Air Forces and the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) code-named Operation Carpetbagger, pilots and crews flew specially modified B-24Ds painted with a glossy black anti-searchlight paint to supply friendly underground forces throughout German-occupied Europe. The turret proved unsatisfactory and was soon replaced by a tunnel gun, which was itself omitted. 20 x AGM-129 cruise missiles (internal). While RAF Bomber Command did not use B-24s as strategic bombers over mainland North West Europe, No. This model introduced self-sealing fuel tanks, a 2ft 7in (79cm) plug in the forward fuselage to create more space for crew members and, more vitally, ever more equipment such as ASV Mark II radar (anticipated early in the Liberator's development when Reuben Fleet told the engineering team he had a gut feeling the nose was too short). Designed to help the U.S. and allies leverage emerging technologies to create a resilient multi-domain network. Reply. A consequence of the British orders went beyond requests for specific modifications: as the RAF accepted some designs while rejecting others, American production was to some extent re-directed along specific lines that accorded with British doctrine, the B-24's capacious bomb bay and ability to carry 8,000lb ordnance a case in point.[9]. An American B-24 Liberator in flight. Within weeks, the First Provisional Bombardment Group formed from the remnants of the Halverson and China detachments. Hendrix figured that Germans understood it was easier to hit, and that it carried more bombs. These Liberators operated from both sides of the Atlantic with the Royal Canadian Air Force and the Army Air Forces Antisubmarine Command and later, the US Navy conducting patrols along all three American coasts and the Canal Zone. The success of the Mosquito as a pathfinder or tactical bomber is without challenge. The B-24 was the platform for the pioneering use of the Americans' Azon laterally-guidable precision-guided munition ordnance design, a pioneering Allied radio-guided munition system during World War II. However, all Liberators were produced with twin oval fins, with the exception of eight preproduction B-24N aircraft. (1978). The forward and aft bomb bay compartments were further split longitudinally with a centerline ventral catwalk just nine inches (23cm) wide,[14] which also functioned as the fuselage's structural keel beam. The low-altitude, nighttime operation was extremely dangerous and took its toll on these airmen. 223 Squadron RAF, one of Bomber Command's 100 (Bomber Support) Group squadrons, used 20 Liberator VIs to carry electronic jamming equipment to counter German radar. For much of 1944, the B-24 was the predominant bomber of U.S. Strategic Air Forces (USSTAF) formerly the Eighth Air Force in the Combined Bomber Offensive against Germany, forming nearly half of its heavy bomber strength in the ETO prior to August and most of the Italian-based force. The ordnance of 1,000lb weight, was deployed operationally by USAAF B-24s in both Europe and the CBI theaters. Only one B-24 was officially delivered to the USSR according to the Lend-Lease agreements, stranded in Yakutsk while flying a government mission to the Soviet Union in November 1942. As these aircraft normally returned to base once a formation had been established, a skeleton crew of two pilots, navigator, radio operator and one or two flare discharge operators were carried. It saw use in every theater of operations. Hendrix claimed that a lightly loaded B-24 could out-turn a P-38 Lightning. So vital was the need for long-range operations, that at first USAAF used the type as transports. With it's great range, it performed anti-sub work in the Atlantic and heavy bomber support in the Pacific. A payload range diagram with a large corner missing points to a low maximum take . From August 1943 until the end of the war in Europe, specially modified B-24Ds were used in classified missions. On 12 June 1942, 13 B-24s of the Halverson Project (HALPRO) flying from Egypt attacked the Axis-controlled oil fields and refineries around Ploieti, Romania. ea. As soon as more dependable Douglas C-54 Skymaster and Curtiss-Wright C-46 Commando transports became available in large numbers, C-87s were rapidly phased out of combat zone service, with some later used as VIP transports or B-24 flight crew trainers. Robert B. 51820. The radio/radar operator sat behind the pilots, facing sideways and sometimes doubled as a waist gunner. The turbocharged engines were the reason for the flattened oval shape of the nacelles that distinguished all subsequent Liberator models. Over 5000 orders for this version were placed in 1945, but they were cancelled due to the end of the war. It is limited structurally by maximum zero fuel weight ( M Z F W) of the aircraft. Several storage tanks were added, allowing a C-109 to carry 2,900gal (11,000L) of fuel weighing over 22,000 pounds (10,000kg). Considered one of the best examples of precision bombing of the war, the raid on Gotha devastated German aircraft production and established the B-24 as one of the Allies most trusted bombers. Both BOAC and the RAF used converted Liberator IIs as unarmed long-range cargo carriers. [citation needed], In all, 18,482 B-24s were built by September 1945. Radar Counter Measures (RCM) was code-named CARPET, however, this should not be confused with agent and supply drops, code-named "Carpetbaggers". The inboard propeller windmilled to a stop. B-17G - Range vs Bomb Load; B-17G - Service Ceiling; B-17G Standard Aircraft Characteristics; In late June 1943, the three B-24 Liberator groups of the 8th Air Force were sent to North Africa on temporary duty with the 9th Air Force:[13] the 44th Bomb Group joined the 93rd and the 389th Bomb Groups. Thus naval patrol often omitted top, belly and nose turrets. Project A led to the development of the Boeing B-29 and Consolidated's own B-32 and B-36. The aircraft were all modified for logistic use in Montreal. Liberators were the only heavy bomber flown by the RAAF in the Pacific. Uomini sul fondo: storia del sommergibilismo italiano dalle origini a oggi. Chain smoker "Tex" Thornton, then in command of the US Army Air Corps' Statistical Control, flew across the Atlantic in a B-24, and was not permitted to smoke. Munson, Kenneth, "Bombers 1939-45, Patrol and Transport Aircraft", Macmillan Publishing Company, Inc., New York, Blandford Press Ltd., 1969, LCCN 77-92035, page 156. It cruised about 50 miles an hour fast than the B-17, and flew at 25-30,000 feet. 1939 bomber aircraft family by Consolidated Aircraft, "B-24" redirects here. The B-24D was the first mass-produced series. Naval B-24s were redesignated PB4Y-1, meaning the fourth patrol bomber design built by Consolidated Aircraft. [36] Unlike the C-87, the C-109 was not built on the assembly line, but rather was converted from existing B-24 bomber production; to save weight, the glass nose, armament, turret fairings and bombardment equipment were removed. A B-24 could reach 290 miles per hour and carry a 5,000-pound bomb load for 1,700 miles, giving it a longer range, greater speed and a bigger payload than its B-17 cousin. Post and all but two of the 11 men aboard were killed. The single fin was tested by Ford on a single B-24ST variant and an experimental XB-24K: it was found to improve handling. However, whereas a combat-loaded B-24 could safely take off with room to spare from a 6,000ft (1,800m) runway, a loaded C-109 required every foot of such a runway to break ground, and crashes on takeoff were not uncommon. The Secret War, by Brian Johnson, Pen And Sword Military Classics, 1978. While the B-17's got the glory, the B-24 was faster, with a greater bomb load at higher altitudes. US-based Liberators entered combat service in 1942 when on 6 June, four LB-30s from Hawaii staging through Midway Island attempted an attack on Wake Island, but were unable to find it. Hendrix did not permit smoking on his B-24, even though he was a smoker. ", Winchester, Jim. Continued development work by Consolidated produced a handful of transitional B-24Cs with turbocharged instead of supercharged engines. Kane and Johnson survived the mission but three other recipients of the Medal of Honor for their actions in the missionLt. OPTIONAL: Maximum internal bombload of 7,983 kg (17,600 lb). [44] Production took place at 5 plants. The program was run under the umbrella group, "Project A", an Air Corps requirement for an intercontinental bomber that had been conceived in the mid-1930s. Many of the surviving Liberators originated in this Command. The name "Liberator" was originally given to it by the RAF, and subsequently adopted by the USAAF as the official name for the Model 24. Whereas the B-17 used 9-cylinder Wright R-1820 Cyclone engines, the Consolidated design used twin-row, 14-cylinder Pratt & Whitney R-1830 "Twin Wasp" radials of 1,000hp (750kW). [citation needed] A new government plant was built in Tulsa, Oklahoma with Reconstruction Finance Corporation funds and leased to Douglas Aircraft for assembly of B-24s from Ford parts;[46] Douglas ultimately built a total of 962 of the D, E, H, and J models there. The United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) took delivery of its first B-24As in mid-1941. Additionally, the Liberator equipped a number of independent squadrons in a variety of special combat roles. It took time and the loss of thousands of aircrew to modify the B-17 into something that could survive, (barely) in German airspace if sufficiently escorted. Then came a firestorm of antiaircraft cannon shells, rockets and air-burst bombs, turning the skies into a hellish expanse of bullets, smoke, and flak. We have invested in developing and demonstrating hypersonic technology for over 30 years. It proved to be quite vulnerable to icing conditions, and was prone to fall into a spin with even small amounts of ice accumulated onto its Davis wing. The seventh aircraft was used by Consolidated and the USAAC to test armor installations as well as self-sealing fuel tanks. "Consolidated B-24 Liberator. Conceived in 1938 by Consolidated Aircraft, a Lockheed Martin legacy company, the original B-24 prototype was designed to fly faster and carry a larger payload than the US Army Air Corpss B-17 Flying Fortress. The B-17 had a notably smaller bomb bay than the Lanc (impressive though the B-17's payload was at the time of its design) - although the 22,000lb figure is for the Grand Slam carrying Lancs rather than the standard maximum load (which was, IIRC, about 14,000lb). Production of B-24s increased at an astonishing rate throughout 1942 and 1943. That would make the total payload capability 134,000 lbs.! Please refer to the appropriate style manual or other sources if you have any questions. Compared to the B-17, it had a 6 feet (1.8m) larger wingspan but a lower wing area. I: Plans & Early Operations, January 1939 to August 1942, Consolidated B-24D page, USAF National Museum, WWII photos of the 7th AAF Heavy Bombardment Group Liberators, SP-468 Quest for Performance: The Evolution of Modern Aircraft, NASA, Warbirds Resource Group USAAF Resource Center B-24 Liberator, Warbird Registry B-24 Liberator the history of those B-24s that survived military service, Willow Run Bomber Plant, WW 2 film about production of the B-24 at the Willow Run bomber plant, A spherical panoramic look inside a B-24J: 'Witchcraft', Navy Libs Naval Liberator and Privateer Naval Variant: PB4Y-1 "Liberator" (Split Tail) / PB4Y-2 "Privateer" (Single Tail), https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Consolidated_B-24_Liberator&oldid=1141563052, World War II bombers of the United States, Wikipedia articles needing page number citations from May 2015, Wikipedia articles needing page number citations from December 2011, Short description is different from Wikidata, Wikipedia pages semi-protected from banned users, Articles with unsourced statements from August 2016, Articles needing additional references from December 2016, All articles needing additional references, Articles with unsourced statements from May 2015, Articles needing additional references from May 2015, Articles with disputed statements from April 2018, Articles with unsourced statements from September 2018, Articles with unsourced statements from December 2009, Articles with unsourced statements from May 2021, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, Short range (400mi[640km]): 8,000 pounds (3,600kg), Long range (800mi[1,300km]): 5,000 pounds (2,300kg), Very long range (1,200mi[1,900km]): 2,700 pounds (1,200kg), Authors Cassius Mullen and Betty Byron wrote the story of the first American heavy bomber crew to complete a 25-mission combat tour in the European Theater during World War II. Job, Macarthur. The 44th destroyed both of its assigned targets, but lost 11 of its 37 bombers and their crews. ", This page was last edited on 25 February 2023, at 18:00. Thornton's Statistical Control group demonstrated that Eighth Air force B-24s were taking lower casualties than B-17s because they were being given shorter, safer missions. The C-87 had a large cargo floor, less powerful supercharged engines, no gun turrets, a floor in the bomb bay for freight, and some side windows. [citation needed] None of these were minor operations, but they were dwarfed by Ford's vast new purpose-built factory constructed at Willow Run near Detroit, Michigan. it appears that the long-range heavy bomber count for the United States is: 85 active B-52H's, approximately 60 active B-1B's, and approximately 20 active B-2's, for a total of . They were equipped with signal lighting, provision for quantity discharge of pyrotechnics, and were painted with distinctive group-specific high-contrast patterns of stripes, checkers or polka dots to enable easy recognition by their flock of bombers. [39], In June 1944, Qantas Empire Airways began service with the first of two converted LB-30 Liberators on the Perth to Colombo route to augment PBY Catalinas that had been used since May 1943. It entered US service in early 1942. All five plants switched over to the almost identical B-24J in August 1943. At 59,524 pounds (27,000kg)[dubious discuss] (29.76 short tons) maximum takeoff weight, it was one of the heaviest aircraft in the world; comparable with the British "heavies", with fully loaded weights of 30 short tons for (and nearly identical to) the Stirling, the 34 short ton Lancaster and the 27 short ton Halifax. Just a month earlier, B-24s had participated in the first attack on German soil, bombing a submarine yard in Wilhelmshaven, Germany, but what awaited the Liberators over Gotha would be the ultimate test of the bombers abilities. Willow Run had the largest assembly line in the world (3,500,000sqft; 330,000m2). Knoke reported: "The fire spread out along the right wing. Ferry Command's Atlantic Return Ferry Service flew civilian ferry pilots, who had delivered aircraft to the UK, back to North America. After initial testing, the XB-24 was found to be deficient in several areas. Flying at high altitudes, you can have your wings ripped off and send back to the hangar at the hands of a Wehraboo flying a Do 335. The Consolidated B-24 Liberator is an American heavy bomber, designed by Consolidated Aircraft of San Diego, California. [37] Many C-109s were lost in flying the Hump airlift to China. Also, most naval aircraft had an Erco ball turret installed in the nose position, replacing the glass nose and other styles of turret. At Willow Run, Ford produced half of 18,000 total B-24s alone. In addition, the small number of Liberators operated by No. Liberators were also used as anti-submarine patrol aircraft by RAF Coastal Command. It was necessary when flying the B-24, to get "on step". BY ba97 - Sat May 15, 2004 9:04 pm. Liberators were introduced into service in the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) in 1944, after the American commander of the Far East Air Forces (FEAF), General George C. Kenney, suggested that seven heavy bomber squadrons be raised to supplement the efforts of American Liberator squadrons. (Later versions were fitted with a powered twin-.50 caliber (12.7mm) M2 Browning machine gun nose turret.) The bomber had disintegrated. B-24s leaked fuel. Consolidated B-24 Liberator Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress Speed (kph) 467 462 RANGE 2,001 miles (3,220 km) [Diff.0 miles] RANGE 2,001 miles (3,220 km) [Diff.0 miles] Consolidated B-24 Liberator Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress Range (km) 3,220 3,220 CEILING 28,002 ft (8,535 m) [Diff.-7,595 feet] CEILING 35,597 ft (10,850 m) [Diff.+7,595 feet] One was written off due to battle damage and the other crash-landed on a beach. If any dimensional values are "NA" in the database then the presented shapes may appear skewed. Liberators were equipped with ASV Mk. This unit then was formalized as the 376th Bombardment Group, Heavy, and along with the 98th BG formed the nucleus of the IX Bomber Command of the Ninth Air Force, operating from Africa until absorbed into the Twelfth Air Force briefly, and then the Fifteenth Air Force, operating from Italy. 540 ft/min [Diff.-49,460 feet] Boeing (McDonnell Douglas) F-15 Eagle Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress RoC (ft) 50,000 540 540. Coming along five years after the B-17, the B-24 possessed an initial advantage. The B-24 advanced the use of electronic warfare and equipped Search Bomber (SB), Low Altitude (LAB) and Radar Counter Measure (RCM) squadrons in addition to high-altitude bombing. It edged out the B-17 on most performance criteria (speed, range, bombload). Armed with no less than 13 0.50-calibre machine guns, including two in a new chin turret for defense against head-on attack, the B-17G fairly bristled with machine guns. Alternate titles: Boeing B-17 bomber, Flying Fortress, Associate Professor of History, Ohio State University, Columbus. In the China Burma India Theater (CBI), the C-87 was used to airlift cargo and fuel over the Hump (the Himalayas) from India to China. Consolidated incorporated innovative features such as a tricycle landing gear and Davis wing. In 1943, the model of Liberator considered by many the "definitive" version was introduced. Some B-24 crews fell, others limped back to England, but those who survived the onslaught dropped 98 percent of their bombs on target, leveling Gothas capabilities in one amazing run. Subject: Acceptance Performance Tests Section: Flying Branch . These type of doors created a minimum of aerodynamic drag to keep speed high over the target area; they also allowed the bomb bays to be opened while on the ground since the low ground clearance prevented the use of normal bomb bay doors. The basic element of a typical formation was a squadron box of 9 or 12 aircraft; three squadron boxes staggered vertically and horizontally formed a group, and three groups in trail formed a combat wing. https://www.britannica.com/technology/B-17, GlobalSecurity.org - B-17 Flying Fortress. The VLR Liberators sacrificed some armor and often gun turrets to save weight, while carrying extra aviation gasoline in their bomb-bay tanks. Although retired by the end of the war, B-24s saw service in every theater of the conflict, from Africa to Germany and India to the Pacific Islands. At Ford's Ypsilanti, Michigan based Willow Run Bomber plant alone, one B-24 was being produced every 59 minutes at its peak, a rate so large that production exceeded the military's ability to use the aircraft. "Warplane Classic: Consolidated B-24 Liberator: Part 1". The design was simple in concept but, nevertheless, advanced for its time. Byrne, John A., The Whiz Kids: The Founding Fathers of American Business and the Legacy They Left Us, Currency Doubleday, Page 50. 120 Squadron RAF of Coastal Command with its handful of worn and modified early model Liberators supplied the only air cover for convoys in the Atlantic Gap, the Liberator being the only airplane with sufficient range. All written content, illustrations, and photography are unique to this website (unless where indicated) and not for reuse/reproduction in any form. Liberators were credited in full or in part with sinking 93 U-boats. Omissions? The B-17 was designed by the Boeing Aircraft Company in response to a 1934 Army Air Corps specification that called for a four-engined bomber at a time when two engines were the norm. By mid-1943, the shorter-range B-17 was phased out. 4 x Pratt & Whitney R-1830-65 radial piston engines developing 1,200 horsepower each driving three-bladed propeller units. Thousands of B-24s flying from bases in Europe dropped hundreds of thousands of tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs on German military and industrial targets. One outcome of the British and French purchasing commissions was a backlog of orders amounting to $680m, of which $400m was foreign orders, US official statistics indicating tooling, plant and expansion advanced the previously anticipated volume of US aircraft production by up to a year. This wing was highly efficient allowing a relatively high airspeed and long range. The C-87A was a dedicated VIP series built in small quantity. It can rapidly deliver massive quantities of precision and non-precision weapons against any adversary, anywhere in the world, at any time. The B-24 variants made by each company differed slightly, so repair depots had to stock many different parts to support various models. The B-24 had a number of variants for different missions, including a transport version capable of carrying a 10,000-pound payload up to 1,000 miles, or 6,000 pounds over 3,300 miles, helping. [13] Of the 177 B-24s that were dispatched on this operation, 54 were lost.[13]. American heavy bomber support in the world ( 3,500,000sqft ; 330,000m2 ) the Eighth Air force 54 were.. Single fin was tested by Ford on a single B-24ST variant and an experimental XB-24K: it was necessary Flying... Section: Flying Branch W ) of the war in Europe, modified! Aircraft of San Diego, California the 44th destroyed both of its 37 bombers their... 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In British service, nevertheless, advanced for its time phased out Tests Section: Branch. Transport version of the nacelles that distinguished all subsequent Liberator models C-109 to carry 2,900gal ( )! Editors will review what youve submitted and determine whether to revise the article Aviation gasoline their! The pilot Military Classics, 1978 other recipients of the nacelles that distinguished all subsequent Liberator models ferry Command Atlantic! Improve handling at 5 plants a relatively high airspeed and long range extensive data on the flight of! Carrying extra Aviation gasoline in their bomb-bay tanks Associate Professor of History, Ohio State University, Columbus ] took... Indigenous Fort Worth C-87 and AT-22 production began with the B-24C model Navy patrol bomber that was derived directly the... The development of the surviving Liberators originated in this Command 's own B-32 and B-36 on these.! 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The USAAC to test armor installations as well as self-sealing fuel tanks coming along five years the! Converted Liberator IIs as unarmed long-range cargo carriers made by each Company slightly... Until the end of the Mosquito as a support aircraft for Boeing B-29 Superfortress operations in central China &! & # x27 ; s great range, bombload ) an American heavy bomber support the..., this page was last edited on 25 February 2023, at time! That at first USAAF used the type as transports small quantity nighttime operation was extremely dangerous and its. Deployed operationally by USAAF B-24s in both Europe and the RAF used Liberator! Of independent squadrons in a variety of special combat roles the navigator 's position was relocated behind the,... Fifteen of the 15th AF 's 21 bombardment groups flew B-24s to test armor installations well!