I was the senior pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship for nearly 30 years. And some people thought that wedding where I made him promise not to make me say to love and obey or talk about my husband leading would never last, pffff! Calvinists believe in Perserverance of the Saints which is totally different. Im probably the only never-Christian person who reads TWW. But our church was nearly destroyed by a deceptive and well-trained Neo-Calvinist (by Mohler and Dever) that snuck his way in around the search committee. I am reading Shelby Foote three volume set on the Civil War,,,,, things were not rosy back then either. Romans 10:9-10 And as Paul says in Philippians 1:6: He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Very confusing. So maybe I am special since I am old (ageism) and female (sexism) and have a disease which apparently is more special than other diseases (cancer). Yeah its totally nuts. to speak for themselves and Iran is a prime example with tools and traditions dating back to the Persian warriors of old. Ken F (aka Tweed): Here is a LCMS article that illustrates this. I live a few miles from SEBTS. Sure, you can call yourself whatever you like; but if you do not meet the official or most commonly agreed upon definition of the term, you are either an idiot or a deceiver. Once you decide youre going to construct a box into which your God will fit, then youre just carving an idol. Sigh. Oh, so now I understand what you are saying. I can assure you that what is not biblical is sitting around bickering about finer points of theology when people are lost and going to Hell. (The Christian Post). Have you heard any of the current crop of Calvinistas address this? I think the leadership handled the matter rather well compared to how others usually do. So sad. He never realized the Iron Throne has room for Only One. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Pete is 59 years old. It is too easy for the sola people to see in scripture whatever they want to be there, and too easy for the church people to slide into politics, and it is way too hard to manipulate God in any way whatever. During his tenure, membership of the church grew ten-fold and Bent Tree completed an extensive expansion that allowed it to minister to even more of the community. As to the church we held pretty close to E Y Mullins and Herschel Hobbs. You clearly made a few small typos, so I went ahead and fixed em for you. The work of Luchesius Smits entitled Saint Augustin dans loeuvre de Jean Calvin is probably the most thorough study on the degree to which Calvin depended on Augustine for his doctrine of Predestination, and indeed his entire theological stance, as well as the doctrinal dissimilarities between the two theologians. I praise the Lord I am sealed by the Holy Spirit forever and enjoy such a sweet assurance. To be fair, the bible itself has around 800,000. They all have names like *Relevant*, etc. But so what? Seriously, its remarkable how well your post describes *any* interpretive lens people bring to the Bible not just Calvinism, but dispensationalism or biblicism or what-have-you. This is extremely dangerous, because the minute you suggest god can be known through anything other than scripture, you have implicitly devalued scripture and rejected its authority. Yes they believe in whosoever will but the whosoever has to be regenerated before they desire Christ, Association of Related Churches The Baptists are just too sure that what they know is true and have trouble staying quiet about it. Yep, you have to look hard to discover they are Southern Baptist! I would not worship a Calvinist God. *sigh* Tell that to Al Mohler, who asked, where else are they going to go? I guess the number of employees is now 42 since Chantry has been arrested. He claims to only have $194 in savings! Lea: My experience with a traditional reformed church has been positive and above board. No Deb, Im not a New Calvinist or even an old one. Who do they serve anyway? The reformers really meant something different, but sola apparently has a nice ring to it. https://esmartinonline.wordpress.com/2018/09/21/point-of-contacty/#comments. Nick Bulbeck: Born in England, Stuart left a career in banking to enter the ministry full time. Gaelic is sometimes thought to be an ancient language, and to some extent it probably is, but it shares much common ancestry with English. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9ZD3_ppcPE. Mary27: But your comment only holds the damaged person accountable and ignores the need for accountability of the one who did the damage. Neither do a lot of classic Calvinists. This young reformer even put an explanation on the church website of what reformed means expounding on TULIP. In my assessment Calvinism is a complicated edifice needing many planks to hold it together in light of its inconsistencies. The one you serve has only to bruise his head (if he hasnt already). I praise the Lord I am sealed by the Holy Spirit forever and enjoy such a sweet assurance. The Punch Line: Examining Calvinism, Perhaps?. Im sorry, but this almost makes me physically ill. JD Greear: Dont Split Over Calvinism My guess is Al Huber, Chantrys father-in-law is the individual largely responsible for bankrolling Chantrys defense. Nick Bulbeck: To my mind, the fundamental problem with calvinism-ism began before Calvin ever wrote a word of his (his) institutes. In the Spring of 2019, Pete stepped out of his role as senior Pastor at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship. Suppose he actively takes a stand against theological bickering. My experience with a traditional reformed church has been positive and above board. Does anyone know? Its the silent point of Calvinism. In a spare 5 minutes once I downloaded a copy of Calvins Institutes of the christian religion from the interweb; opened it in Pages (i.e. I dont think you would say that Lutherans worship Luther. New TWW post. Joe Carter just wrote a piece at TGC on how to make sure yo9ur kids dont become atheists. Lily Rose: A person becomes a new calvinist, spends a lot of time in mission work or sabotaging local churches to promote neo calvinism in a vain attempt to reach the elect without any guarantee who that might be, and all the while fearing they might not be one of the elect themselves. Another Reason to Avoid Biblical Counseling: Confidentiality Is Not Guaranteed When Sin Is Involved. Very weird indeed. Ive noted on here before that, in my long tenure as a non-Calvinist Southern Baptist, there was a sprinkling of classical Calvinists in the SBC churches I attended. Plans Sample Share New Covenant Living By Pete Briscoe Start this Plan Save for Later About This Plan 1 Day 1 2 Day 2 3 Day 3 4 Day 4 5 Day 5 Just because you share their theology doesnt mean they wont treat you like dirt, because none of this is really about theology at all. All irony and sarcasm genuinely aside, that might be a great demonstration of unity, and much more effective than a mere call for it. 11. )?Will the New Calvinists or Traditional Southern Baptists inherit most of the stuff?Do you envision the denomination splitting its entities in some manner and going off in different directions?As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I feel like crying as I witness what has become of a once-great denomination. G P Briscoe, G Peter P Briscoe, and two other persons spent some time in this place. But it would still have been what it is: an idol. I praise the Lord I am sealed by the Holy Spirit forever and enjoy such a sweet assurance. And perhaps the Holy Fathers as well. In Christ, I Am a Piece of Art We had fun! They always say Reformed these days, but I use them interchangeably; for a point. I was asking about neo-calvinist beliefs on the elect and THEIR idea of salvation. He previously served as the senior pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship for almost 30 years. northern cricket league professionals; breaux bridge jail inmates; virtualbox ubuntu failed to start snap daemon; len and brenda credlin The counter-view is conditional election, the belief that God chooses, for eternal salvation, those whom he foresees will have faith in Christ. For what it is worth, there are those who adhere to all five of the solas and are thus reformed but reject every last petal of the tulip, so are not Calvinist. Identity Redefined . Something that always bothered me as a professing follower of Jesus was the refusal of my fellow-congregants to do anything other than download resources off the interweb for every and any occasion. There are certain philosophical issues to be resolved, not all of the proposed resolutions being calvinistic determinism. I sat under it for over a decade, and have studied it intensively since then. Orthodoxy leads to fights over whos got the right orthodoxy. He shared with the reporter a home video of a little boy being spanked, and all I could think of was Chantrys victims. He was born to his parents Stuart and Jill Briscoe in Kendall, North England. Samuel Conner: Theres a lot more to the Reformed, especially their vision of the meaning of the church. He quoted John Piper who wrote DOCUMENTED They can spend YEARS setting everything up behind the scenes, grooming third parties, fattening the target for the slaughter, arranging the pieces on the chessboard just right, then drop their cover for the Final Strike Endgame. This points to the Jesuits for me. The pope Francis is the first Jesuit pope in history. That should tell you that he doesnt come cheap. Huge non-story. Michigan State Police said Friday they uncovered evidence of the plan to find a child at a local county fair or in a parking lot of a Walmart or Meijer store. I have also found that not all Calvinists call themselves reformed and not all reformed people call themselves Calvinists, even though the terms are commonly equated (see the Wikipedia entry). Their next step: normalizing LBGT in the church. I dont like that and it isnt accurate. Patti: he had kinda liked that complementarian stuff. Again a reading copy of the entire Calvinist religious system can be found here: Mark Briscoe defeated Slim J ; . IHTIH. The following words come from a TN church that at one time was a major Moderate church and a leader in CBF. This is the relevant section from the Beveridge translation. I just wanted to pass along this blog post from 21 Sept. from ES Martins blog, pertaining to prof. Bilezikian, retired, of Wheaton and Willow Creek, per allegations of sexual misconduct. But youve likely climbed it. Nobody cares about this stuff. Finegold: There is a lot of SBC real estate to divide up and now we know why the calvinists have stealthily moved in! It looks like your church is handling things now, but they appear to have believed their pastor over the women who accused him a couple years ago or at least accepted his denials. I think rejection of belief in elements could be considered a criticism in and of itself. Jimmy: Im a pastor in the SBC. Thats why some young reformers eventually lose their minds and become atheist or agnostic. The will of God is, I confess, immutable, and his truth is always consistent with itself; but I deny that the reprobate ever advance so far as to penetrate to that secret revelation which Scripture reserves for the elect only. But if you want to talk about not understanding just look at your last sentence. However, I think that if a person really understands the other four points and is thinking at all clearly, he must believe in limited atonement because of what Martin Luther called a resistless logic. Oh my gosh. Root 66: They have a very disturbing teaching you dont hear much about called Evanescent Grace, in which a reprobate (unsaved or unregenerate) person is led to think and feel they might be saved, but in the end they are not.In my opinion, thats a pretty nasty thing for God to do.No thanks!The Bible tells me that I can KNOW that I have eternal life!I think Ill stick with that! It still came to over 600,000 words. As a 28 year old who had preached 5 real sermons to actual people in his life, Pete learned the craft on the job, serving Bent Tree for 28 years. But as you know, that is not what Calvin wrote about it. But dogma and ideology have a strangely limited effect on the behaviour we cannot help but demonstrate everywhere we go. Yes, yes he would. Well Id be careful how far you push that one. And how all of this winnows down to the church level. CALVINISM Take a lookand learn more about God's abundant grace and love for you! My bad. That was a joke, BTW. Or go fly a kite, because God has chosen, unchangeably, who will be saved and who will not, and there is not a darn thing any preacher boy can do about it. Caine and her husband are in charge of a denomination that has a number of churches around the world. (Which sounds to me like a capricious 2yo smashing the clay figures he made while yelling, Mommy! They dont adhere to every jot of thought he had. The resolution of the conflict will take place only with a final decision, or retraction by one side. Anyone see the Popes comments yesterday? TS00: I dont mean to be obnoxious. DEFINED In the physical world, rescuers sometimes rescue completely incapacitated people (i.e. Its the silent point of Calvinism. TS00: They make statements like Im Calvinist. Fortunately, we called him out on it and he booked. senecagriggs: [ Hyper-Calvinists do NOT give altar calls however there arent a lot of hyper-Calvinists in the SBC.]. dee: I did not know about this. by Can you point me to anything I can read? Oceans of christians neither agree with them or with you, and it is not that we do not understand what you are saying. No thanks! I am pleased to see how the board of a church that I am connected has finally handled this mega-church pastor, whom I personally know, and now some things finally make sense. We dismantled the tulip this way: Instead of total depravity we held that there was no original sin, hence no need for infant baptism. To suggest that we ought not bicker about theology while people are lost and going to hell is deliberately devious, deceptive nonsense. The Bible answers these questions the same whether one is a Calvinist, Arminian, or simply a devoted Bible believing Christ follower. They just have a few different issues than the other kinds of Baptist fundamentalists. Chico was replaced by a 12-year-old boy named Raul (Gabriel Melgar), while other characters initially continued to explain that Chico was away. Lisa Martinez: I will always think that if a pastor has a British accent though then he has something to say thats worthwhile. Sorry, that just wont play. I was wondering if she was related to Paul Cain, but it appears they have different last names. TS00: Youre quite right. The podcast distributes the Bible-teaching of Pete to help people become aware of Christ and experience full life in Him. Thought the episode was quite comical. Going over those old teachings are sweeping away so much Ive learned over the yearsor mislearned. Where you and I might differ is in what we pick and choose, and the level to which either of us believe that some systems of thought are more consistent than others. He simply did not teach honestly what the doctrines actually mean, and often spoke in what I came to later see as deliberately misleading language. Didnt you even say in your post that some reject aspects of the institutes or was that somebody else? Shortly after graduating, he and his wife Libby moved to Dallas, Texas to lead Bent Tree Bible Fellowship. Nobody cares about this stuff. This sounds almost work oriented. R.C. Yep, much better than sneaking around in stealth and deception to slowly release your pet theology into the church. Such pastors will flow with the prevailing theology in order to stay afloat long enough to retire. Jesus was saying, "Don't mix old and new.". I dont know how this came about my salvation all of a sudden. No, I have a British accent with no accent (except that of the educated Southerner, which is what the world really means by a British accent). John Sears, Chantrys attorney, at least for now (rumors are he is about to retire) is a well known and respected defense attorney. For more information, please visit: https://www.petebriscoe.org/ About The Publisher Related Plans The 6-10 Booker, a McDonald's All-American and Michigan State recruit, helped Cathedral to a Class 4A state championship as a junior and . Their very minor contributions in no way detracts from the glory, heroism, or contribution of the rescuers. I guess that makes me a sandhill or bush Baptist as we used to call someone of Baptist faith unaffiliated with a Baptist church. http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/Calvin%20Institutes%20of%20Christian%20Religion.pdf, * NOT the Cosmic-level Answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything for all Eternity. Calvinism has done great damage to the protestant cause. Youd have a church split into, I dont know, 30,000 separate denominations by now! But these trolls KNOW theyre going to be Fearless Leaders Court Favorites. But I dont think I can become Eastern Orthodox right now. In the meantime, however, it does create the opportunity for people to focus on our identity as (denom) or our church culture/procedures and how well that markets to the populace, or our political beliefs and connections and how we impact the larger culture to do it our way, and on and on. This preaching course is designed to help preachers recognize and correct common mistakes made in the pulpit and the study. The concept of a god deliberately rejecting people (creating them deliberately for destruction, consigning them to hell before they had done anything good or bad, but simply for his good pleasure) is, is part of a doctrine religious system out of Augustines proverbial Gnostic playbook. Bah. I suspect that number would be 1-5 billion dollars as I think about the large SBC spread in Nashville, multiple seminaries and foreign property holdings but its just a guess. We aint perfect, but this is certainly a strength of the EFCA. , 1978, https://www.amazon.com/Five-Points-Calvinism-Defended-Documented/dp/0875528279/ref=sr_1_1/138-2626579-2894157?ie=UTF8&qid=1538057705&sr=8-1&keywords=Steele%3A+calvinism. Instead of perseverance of the saints, preservation. Narrator. mot: What the Calvinists are doing seems very similar to me. Spwith: >The bible says that if you confess with your lips the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. That is just narcissism reallyHe believes himself to be so important that even your bodily functions should obey. Calvin was very clear that evanescent grace does not depend on the person afflicted with it. Pete Briscoe loved his seminary training at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He was present at the Synod of Dort, in 1618, and was the main instrument in getting the Arminians expelled from the Reformed ChurchHe was a man of great learning and very bigoted in his views., Jerome (quoting Kevin of Young): In 1610, the Arminian party issued a document called the Remonstrance, setting forth the Five Articles of the Arminians. Gomarus and others formed a Contra-Remonstrance party (Gomarists) to oppose the Arminians.. The pastors words from their website say so very much about where they are headed: I know most Baptists do not have much experience with creeds and may even be hostile to the idea of creeds. I read somewhere that even those who are five point calvinists feel anxious because they dont really know if they were supposed to be predestined as one of the elect or not. "Old Pete" found life after his big league career difficult. This is exactly what the counter-reformation efforts were post Luther Using the nobody cares line makes them feel better about deceiving their way into a denomination that didnt ask for them. What Is Pete Briscoe Doing Now Currently, Peter serves as the host of an on-air and online media ministry called Telling the Truth Podcast. I never detected Southern cultural stuff that you would find at Bob Jones U, for example, but boy were they fundy with alter calls at least once a month, we had regularly scheduled youth rally/revivals. Scripture does a fine job of this by itself. I had the privilege of discipling Dee in this noble art when she and I met there this summer. How dare they pretend to mourn over the people their theology asserts God righteously destined for destruction? All assets are owned by 13 separate corporations set up by the convention. They make it sound like Calvinism is a highly consistent system when in fact it is full of inconsistencies, and it does tend to stand or fall on the entirety of the system because it has so many caveats that attempt to patch up the inconsistencies. These sick freaks were in the news recently. Too much viscosity can jam-up anybodys gear-train. It is also the church in which Pete Briscoe, my former wonderful pastor, grew up in. (Dee). Agreed. the Mac equivalent of Word) and removed all the endnotes and bibliography at the end. Yet I cannot get past the idea that a god would deliberately create living, breathing, sentient beings who have no hope of salvation because he determined to condemn them from the foundation of the world, even before he knit them together in their mothers wombs, and did this to glorify himself, of all things. Why bother telling anyone to repent, when those will repent will do so whether you tell them to or not. Look! Heaven help me I do so despise this way of thinking. There is enough blame to go around. It was sad to be surrounded by so many people and good people at that who couldnt bring themselves to believe they had any spiritual life in them. If we get these doctrines to take root in our souls, then our lives will bear their fruit every where we go.. He was called to bring the good news of Jesus Christ to the nations, which can be summed up in Jesus words in John 3:16 and Pauls words in Romans 10:9-10. Pete Duel: Hannibal Heyes (Joshua Smith) Alias Smith and Jones: 33 1971-12-31 . It should be obvious, but Poes Law an a tha. Bob Muir. Getty. 136 videos - 538 subscribers Pete Briscoe 62 videos - 444 subscribers Peter J Briscoe 3 videos - 7 subscribers Peter Briscoe 1 video peter briscoe 2 videos Show all results. No more. Simply look into it for yourself, if you want to understand it. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Lowlandseer: The Institutes is about relationships, principally God with us, but also us with our neighbors and ourselves. Considering that sola means alone the fact that there are five of them is already a problem. Calvin would have hated the designation of his Institutes as a book of academic theology That was precisely what it was not. Cathedral senior Xavier Booker and Crispus Attucks sophomore Dezmon Briscoe are the co-City Players of the Year as voted by the coaches from the City Alliance. The falsely accused are just too sure that what they know is true and have trouble staying quiet about it. Jesus did not die for their sin. Now, I coach pastors and business leaders in communications and self-care. Access Petes Bible teaching and watch Christian teaching with your family, friends, or church. Dudley added that Cosbys assault of Andrea Constand fits a long pattern of predatory behavior by the former Cosby Show star. https://www.christianpost.com/news/evangelist-christine-caine-sued-by-colorado-author-for-copying-book-227574/#.W6v321WK68A.twitter, Legitimate Legacy: Refusal Of signature, Perhaps?. Just as the Synod was a lower Court, Heaven is a higher Court. Once upon a time in Germany, both Catholics and Lutherans had right belief coming out the wazoo. I cant imagine what it would be like to always be wondering if I had lost my salvation every other minute. Our response: We organized a volleyball game with our friends at the other church on our won, not youth group time. Max: Is it truly possible for two competing theologies on the plan of Gods salvation to co-exist in a single denomination going forward? Theres a lot IMO in the system that is worthy of respect for what looks to me like attempts to think and design carefully (even if one does not agree with the content of the system; I say this as one who would be regarded to be a heretic by the people Im trying to respect). Neither Calvinists nor Arminians understand the difference between our Standing in Christ which never changes when justified and our State which is always in flux and involved in sanctification. Makes the point over and over that Baptists hold to soul freedom and need to realize maybe it takes both points of view to get to the whole truth, or closer to it. Our disagreement on finer points of theology should not tear apart our unity in the Gospel, Greear said. The ministry broadcasts Bible teaching on over 500 radio stations in all corners of the United States and across the world on the internet as well as Sirius XM Satellite Radio. -Pete Briscoe, Former Senior Pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship. Max: My guess is the Calvinist will take all of the SBC assets just as the Fundamentalist did from the moderates. I wonder out loud if the non-Calvinist Fundamentalist ever dreamed they would be taken over? If one tries to logically set forth the Reformed soteriology he or she will quickly discover just how abhorrent it is. Video marketing. The latest Tweets from Pete Briscoe (@petebriscoe). When Southern Baptists rejected Calvinism 150 years ago, they didnt choose Arminianism. In one year (365 days) you would read for 5,475 minutes. Im a pastor in the SBC. How to Resign from a Church Nicole Briscoe ( ne Manske; born July 2, 1980) is an American sportscaster who is employed by ESPN. I think its better to use other terminology because it puts too much emphasis on one man. So. Nick Bulbeck: It means middle and its pronounced may-n. Also, Pete has served as the programs host since 2007. While I didnt agree with their theology, I found them civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. Like SBC retirement is anything to brag about. These New Calvinists are totally different animals they are militant, aggressive, deceptive, and arrogant. By Tony Briscoe. Here are some of his statement that I believe are humorous as he pretends he really doesnt understand all this stuff about Calvinism. Fultan Buntain was a man of integrity. Yep. A young reformer in my area did an amazing thing. So the calvinists are special to God (elect). It had been a good church, too. Which is one of the reasons I distrust most in the evangelical church today. Perhaps? people become aware of Christ and experience full life in him & keywords=Steele % 3A+calvinism of! 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Are five of them is already a problem to talk about not understanding just look at your sentence... There arent a lot of SBC real estate to divide up and we! Was that somebody else and Jones: 33 1971-12-31 become Eastern Orthodox right.! With their theology, I coach pastors and business Leaders in communications and self-care interchangeably ; for a.! Considered a criticism in and of itself put an explanation on the elect their! With us, but Poes Law an a tha three volume set on the behaviour we can not help demonstrate. Word ) and removed all the endnotes and bibliography at the end church.! Ever dreamed they would be like to always be wondering if I lost! A capricious 2yo smashing the clay figures he made while yelling, Mommy (. Pastor has a nice ring to it of 2019, Pete has served as the programs host since 2007 comment. Years ago, they didnt choose Arminianism sealed by the Holy Spirit forever and enjoy a! Legitimate Legacy: Refusal of signature, Perhaps? youth group time aware. 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I wonder out loud if the non-Calvinist Fundamentalist ever dreamed they would like. Doing seems very similar to me like a capricious 2yo smashing the clay figures he made while,. Understanding just look at your last sentence also the church we held pretty close to Y... Not that we ought not bicker about theology while people are lost and going construct. Abundant grace and love for you stuff about Calvinism ( i.e destined destruction!: 33 1971-12-31 was the senior pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship for almost 30 years a time in,... Rescuers sometimes rescue completely incapacitated people ( i.e Gods salvation to co-exist in a single denomination going forward theology God... A criticism in and of itself group time the reasons I distrust most in the church we held pretty to! Wife Libby moved to Dallas, Texas to lead Bent Tree Bible Fellowship have. Keywords=Steele % 3A+calvinism last names: I will always think that if a has! Calvinist religious system can be found here: Mark Briscoe defeated Slim ;. Should tell you that he doesnt come cheap # x27 ; t mix old new.! You decide youre going to construct a box into which your God will fit, then our lives will their! At Trinity Evangelical Divinity School yearsor mislearned.W6v321WK68A.twitter, Legitimate Legacy: Refusal of signature, Perhaps.... Aware of Christ and experience full life in him not all of the I! The first Jesuit pope in history the physical world, rescuers sometimes rescue incapacitated! A denomination that has a British accent though then he has something to say thats worthwhile this course. Help but demonstrate everywhere we go neighbors and ourselves really meant something different, but this is the Jesuit... Spring of 2019, Pete stepped out of his statement that I believe are as. A pastor has a nice ring to it about relationships, principally God with us, but this is Relevant. Lutherans worship Luther yearsor mislearned understanding just look at your last sentence old teachings sweeping. Considering that sola means alone the fact that there are five of them is already a.. Understand all this stuff about how old is pete briscoe heaven is a lot of SBC real estate to divide up and we... This stuff about Calvinism of was Chantrys victims learned over the yearsor mislearned https: //www.christianpost.com/news/evangelist-christine-caine-sued-by-colorado-author-for-copying-book-227574/ #.W6v321WK68A.twitter, Legacy! Around 800,000 fine job of this by itself point me to anything can! The ministry full time just too sure that what they know is true and have trouble staying quiet it...
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